Minke 2504 pull-on boot v.2

Over the past few years, I’ve used a journal app to self-evaluate my projects—noting where things have gone well or have improved, highlighting trouble spots to be mindful of in future builds, and other miscellaneous observations. However, I mostly end up writing my journal entries as post-mortems instead of in-progress memos, which means I often don’t remember the more granular stuff, and that makes it difficult when I’m trying to recall the specific hows and whys of my process. I’m going to do my best to follow others’ leads and provide some updates here as I go along on this current project.

This is another attempt at creating a pull-on (roper, wellington, yada yada whatever) on a Minke 2504 last. Nathan Florsheim kindly gave me this last since he no longer had any use for it, and he thought it had a good toe shape for a pull-on. The first build on this last had all kinds of issues, and it frustrated me to the point where I needed to walk away from it for some long periods of time. I had hoped to make it a full build, but because of the problems I had with patterning and some other mistakes I made, I decided to turn the boots into essentially a fitter pair—once the uppers were done, I did a very slapdash job of bottoming the boots with some crude soles and heels. I recoil in terror every time I look at this photo, but here is the result:

Patterning issues and overall ghastly looks aside, the boots did indeed fit. Now to take another stab at making them.

Lately, I have been using Pattern Cutting by Frank Jones as my basis for creating my patterns. He has a chapter that lays out the fundamentals of creating a standard for a tall laceless boot. There are some aspects in his approach that I’ve had to modify for my own; for example, he advises for a fairly modest lasting allowance of 14mm, whereas I find I need one closer to 25mm for my purposes. His pattern also calls for a lined quarter with a stiffener in between the layers. I am making my boots unlined, thus I need to pattern for a counter cover on the outside of the shaft. (I have made a few attempts at a stitched-in heel counter, but I have found it to be very difficult to assemble, and I have had trouble getting the counter stiffener to actually be…stiff.)

Here’s a look at the standard:

While the long heel measurement is 185mm, I extended the pass line to 191mm to allow for a slightly easier entry and exit.

There’s very little guidance out there for how to pattern a counter cover. The most common advice I’ve heard hasn’t been advice at all; mainly just “yeah, making counter covers sucks,” lol. But I did get some good pointers from Mikhail of Arno Shoes. For drawing the counter cover on the standard, he advised that the counter cover should allow for about 3-4mm of space for the stiffener piece between the cover and the rest of the upper. He also recommended that I draw the front curve of the cover the way I wanted it to line up with the rest of the upper, but that I should also add a few millimeters on each side to account for the sandwiching of materials.

For creating the actual pattern piece for the counter cover, Mikhail directed me to this excerpt from his blog:

I tried following this method on the previous iteration of these boots. I think I misunderstood what Mikhail was showing here, and ultimately my counter cover ended up being ridiculously mis-sized. This time around, I think I might have figured it out…

I traced the counter cover from the standard, drew a T, and then lined it up so that the top of the counter cover lined touched the X-axis, while the Y-axis touched the position of the feather line on the pattern base. I then marked a point 5mm under the feather line, made a V shape, then mirrored the pattern on the other side.

Finally, I took my wing divider and extended the counter cover 4mm up and out.

Will this work? No idea yet. We’ll find out together. In the meantime, I’ve moved on to crimping my blockers for my vamps.

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I can’t tell you if that’s normal, but I can tell you it’s happened to me!

I’ve never really regretted giving more. Maybe for a minute, when I’m literally holding a trim scrap I just cut away. But I’ve also suffered through a pair where I didn’t leave enough, and it hurt the lasting.

I get the sense that specialist patternmakers tend to work in production, and producers expect clicking economy from them as part of what earns their pay. Customer makers not to much.

One crutch that’s helped me quite a bit is “clicking” pieces out of foam drawer or shelf liner about the same thickness as the leather I intend to use. It’s never exactly as thick, and it stretches differently than the leather does, too. But it’s helped me make adjustments and gain confidence in pattern pieces designed to wrap around curvy heels.

Just curious do you have any pictures from the last time you patterned the counters?

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My EZ method for flattening patterns continuous across a curve is basically make a 3d pattern with a taped seam then flatten it.

First transfer the sub pattern to the top of two pieces of paper that is light enough to be balled up or crumpled, but stiff enough to hold an edge. Something a little lighter than printer paper works well; tissue paper loses the curves and craft paper won’t crumple well. I like to use Elmer craft spray glue to quickly stick the layers together without a permanent bind, but not a requirement here I’m going to make a pattern for a gooseneck back strap but same principle applies for a counter cover

Then I cut out the pattern, peel the tracing paper layer off, and tape the edge I want to straighten of the two remaining pieces of paper. I just lay some straight pieces along the edge with about half the width of the tape overhanging the edge, then make lots of radial slits in the tape, flip the pattern, and fold the pieces over. It’s important the tape fold right at the pattern edge. I didn’t do it here, but for butt pieces like this, consider not tape-seaming the lasting allowance part so it can spread freely.

Then when you unfold the two halves they will create a 3d form

I should have taken a better picture but this has the swan neck curve in it and projects above the table. Next I draw a straight line on stiff pattern paper like kraft or manilla or poster, spray adhesive on one side of the 3d pattern, then basically smoosh the pattern down onto the poster board letting the center crumple flat naturally, but taking care to keep that center seam right on the straight line.

Then trace around and discard the flattened crumpled paper. What you get is a flattened pattern that can be a little unsymmetric but both will be valid; the whole process of flattening and springing will always involve asking the leather to stretch or compress in different ways and the assembly step just needs a “good enough” pattern to contort flat leather into 3d by lasting or blocking or glueing etc.

But since it’s asymmetric and that gives me twitches I clean up one side, fold it along my centerline (on poster and the like, a light score along the center line with a knife just cutting the surface will make the board want to fold right down the center), then cut out that prettier smoothed side.

If you do leave the butt cracked on the bottom part like in Mikhail’s tutorial, be sure to add a little seam allowance for when you sew it closed after clicking

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And by easy I mean… more steps but a little more deterministic, and applicable to both simple and compound curves

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Wow, great post!

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Not the last time, no. I think I did it mostly off-pattern. this is what the counter cover originally looked like on the standard.

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I had the opportunity to spend a day at Unsung House a week and a half ago, and after chatting with Grant a bit about trying a different approach to patterning the counter cover, I may actually nix that 4mm extension around the border of the pattern piece. Grant cautioned that it may distort the shape of the counter cover too much, and thus throw off where it needs to lay. If anything, I may actually want to add more lasting allowance on the bottom. For now, I think I am going to trim that allowance off that I added on the top of the pattern piece, and move forward knowing that I may need to revisit this part when I’m closing the upper.

I will have to try @thenewreligion 's approach at some point, though!

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Sounds fun! I learned a lot visiting with Grant too and he’s so generous with his knowledge. The neat thing about talking to him is just realizing how much he’s figured out through experience rather than all the overthinking and reading I try to do :sweat_smile:

Yeah I was sort of trying to say the same thing here, you don’t want to mess with the length of the line that is meant to match up with another pattern piece when you are springing anything. From personal experience it is helpful to make a fitter or just lay some leather on the last and figure out the length of that line in order to compensate for quarter and counter thickness, at least until you are experienced enough to freehand the additional thickness on the backline.

One way to do this is to make up and close the quarters and mark where you want the counter cover to attach. Place it on the last. Skive the counter (stiffener) and place it where it will go. Then crumple and reopen some tracing paper a couple times until it’s flexible like cloth. Lay it over the lasted quarter/counter and sketch out the attachment line you marked on your quarters. You can tape it in place while you are tracing. Then lay this flat, clean it up a bit, and fold it in half, lay it back on your master pattern, line up the front and top of the pattern, and you will see how much allowance you needed to add to your backline to get the final piece.

I’ll see if I can draw that out later

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That makes sense!

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I cut my vamps out from my crimp pieces the other day. I’m already considering going back and redoing the pattern, haha.

I think the way I’ve been patterning my vamps recently is difficult to translate onto a crimped blocker piece. The last few times I’ve made the “tongue” more of a broad, rounded shape, rather than being more narrow and squared off. I don’t recall having an issue with this the first time I tried it, but this current build and the previous one have given me trouble. In order to fit the entire vamp pattern on the crimped blocker, I basically have to shunt the pattern towards the front of the piece. As a result, I’m trimming a lot of excess leather from the back of the blocker, and by moving the pattern closer to the front edges of the blocker, it becomes more difficult to work around the nail holes in the leather. This is what happened last time, which I can foresee happening again:

This is also my first time using Lisa’s crimp boards, which have that sharp angle on the toe. Where I’ve had to cut out the vamp basically leaves the toebox area with an odd, nubby look that may or may not get lasted out. (Frankly this might be more a product of the leather itself and/or my clicking.)

I’m thinking of redoing the tongue into a shape more like this, so that I can sit the pattern farther up along the blocker:

If anyone has any thoughts on this, feel free to chime in.

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Have you read through all the Jones stuff on tongue and vamp patterns? He’s got a separate method for wide sloping tongues.

pp159-161 and pp 118-124

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Admittedly I did not read this section, or if I did, it’s been a while…

I will follow Jones’ instructions for springing the vamp and see if I can get it positioned on my blocker pattern in a way that makes sense. I already went back and redid the vamp/tongue shape, but I’ll see if I can make it work with the original wider tongue.

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