Fully Lined Derby Boot Patterning

After flubbing the patterning on a pair of derby boots, I decided to take a few hours and play with the patterning again, starting from new tape forms. One of my goals was to try out some of the concepts I had in notes from the Seidich family’s Uppermaking book:

I also went back and reviewed notes from D.W. Frommer II’s Western Packers.

All the USA-made, work-style boots I own have completely unlined quarters. They essentially just double the vamps with some lining leather and sew those stacks as if they were single pieces of leather. Here’s that being done at Nicks:

It’s also possible to line both vamp and quarters this way, at the cost of potentially creating fairly bulky vamp-quarter seams, even if you skive. But that doesn’t seem to be a serious issue for lighter leathers. I have some Allen Edmonds “Higgins Mill” boots lined this way. AE’s derby shoes that I’ve seen also line quarter this way, though they often have a separate lining pieces at the back, in the same of a heel slide.

By contrast, the Uppermaking book diagrams of lining patterns all show completely straight vamp lining to quarter lining seams, placed ahead of the upper vamp-quarter seams to avoid any overlap.

Goals

Pulling things together, a to-do list for fancier Derby lining patterns:

  • Completely cover the underside of the vamp.

  • Afford some trim allowance around the tab for the tongue on the vamp.

  • Completely cover the undersides of the quarters, with the possible exception of the tips of the tabs that come under the vamp-quarter seams. But definitely cover the parts of the quarter tabs that come under the stay stitches, so those stitches bind all four layers.

  • Afford some trim allowance around the facings and toplines.

  • Avoid overlapping vamp-quarter seams.

  • If the seam between vamp lining and quarter lining is a lapped seam, lay the quarter linings under the vamp linings so any exposed edge faces toward the toe and doesn’t hang the foot up when putting the shoes on.

  • If heel counters will be placed between upper and lining, take the quarter linings in toward the backseam to make room for them.

Edit: One might also add:

  • Avoid any seam running up and down the middle of the heel, ankle, and Achilles. This can be done by making a third lining piece, like a backstrap, running down the middle, by making the quarter lining pieces asymmetric, so one wraps around the heel, or by overlaying a heel slide.

Papercraft

I went back and did new tape forms from my last for the failed pair number 4. My first mock-up in foam failed, but I think I eventually got it in paper:

The critical points on this vamp pattern, which the Seidiches call the “fitting points”, are right at the corners where the swooping curves from the quarter seam intersect the bottom of the tongue tab. The Seidiches actually punch small holes here, I believe in every pattern piece but the quarters. The points mark the leading edges of all the various tabs and slits that allow the “noses” of the quarter linings to pass from the very bottom of the stack, nearest the foot, through the vamp lining and vamp, and up under the quarters.

The line inside the tongue tab is 5 millimeters of trim allowance. This reaches out and overlaps the seam allowance, so there are sliced slits along the curved lines.

I made these quarter lining patterns in part by tracing the upper quarter patterns. You can see the dashed lines for the quarter curves still on them, and the way straight lining seams are placed ahead of them.

I tried to lift up the noses, so the photo would show the slits. On each side, the line starting from the leading edge of the seam allowance up to the marked “fitting points” are cut open.

This is hard to make out, but shows the quarter linings over the vamp lining along the seams.

Here’s the stack fully assembled, showing the trim allowance of the vamp lining under the tongue tab of the vamp, as well as the “noses” of the quarter linings coming up, through, and under.

Here’s a side shot of a quarter tab, showing the 5 mm of trim allowance on the quarter lining showing all around.

I’m not totally sure, but I think the Uppermaking book describes a slightly different approach, where the quarter lining stops short of quarter seam allowance, rather than extending all the way down below the tab. This lets the quarter lining fall under the stay stitches, but might let you close the quarter seams of the upper before fitting up the linings.

First Thoughts

I’m really glad I did mockups of this. It’s easy enough to understand the idea of the “noses” in the abstract, but I feel like I know my way around much better for having played a bit in paper.

I’m concerned there may be additional nuances with the thicknesses of leather involved. I’m also really hoping I remember not to finish sewing the quarter seams all the way to the front before fitting everything up.

I don’t know whether or when it’s worth the trouble to avoid doubling up the quarter-vamp seams. Clearly people are wearing and enjoying shoes and boots in lighter leathers with the seams doubled. Still, the contrasting seams appeal to me, as a refinement.

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IIRC DW has some great info on linings. The first set of packers i did are fully lined, but every seam was feather skived, with a 3oz lining, and im about 6 wears in now with no discomfort around any of the seam lines.

Pair #2 is also being done like that, im using a 5oz exterior, and 2-3oz lining leather for inside the quarters. It does add a certain amount of bulk to every seam, but nothing unreasonable.

I think I remember that Western Packers describes more or less doubling the vamps and quarters, so the patterns are nearly the same and the pieces get laminated before fitting up. There was some extra allowance to the lining at the backseam and maybe along the quarter seam, but my notes aren’t too clear on that.

Yeah, its a 3/8" to 1/2" allowance in the back of the quarters for the seam for the backline.

The quarters at the vamps are just doubled, as well as the vamps.

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I need to read that bit about the backseam again. I’ve read it twice and never quite understood it.

He gets really wordy there, and does explain the process of doing it; but not what it is. Thats the commentary that sprung up in the discord when i brought it up recently.

DW uses 2 pages on the backline to break down instructions that could read “Leave a 3/8” lining allowance to close the backline with a 3/8" french seam"

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I just had another look, and I agree about the wording. It’s clear he really tried to make it clear, but it just didn’t happen.

Did you come to any conclusion about he actually sewed the backseams of the quarters together? From the photo at the top of page 100, I think I can just barely make out parallel back-and-forth stitches across the seam. But I can’t tell how they were done.

I don’t see any stitches through the inside of the lining, quater, and the lining flaps under the backstrap. And he doesn’t seem to mention sewing those flaps down, just glued down with “all purpose cement”.

He definitely describes sewing the quarter lining together at the back, and that seems to be the consensus if makers that work from his book that ive asked.

Stitching the flaps down likely reinforces the joint pretty well, but its not quite as pretty as just seeing the backstrap stitching coming through the quarter linings.

Theres a gentleman that put a set of packers together with a single piece lining, and im still curious how he did it, but ive yet to reach out and ask.

I’ve done a pair with the lining for both quarters of a single piece, though I’m still a beginner.

I believe my approach was basically:

  1. Butt both quarter patterns together.
  2. Trace the combined shape onto a new piece of paper.
  3. Add lots of trim allowance, like an inch or more, all the way around, then cut out.
  4. Click quarters and close the backseam.
  5. Lay the heel pocket of the closed quarter panels over the back of the last to get the leather curved roughly like it will be once closed, then fit up the paper lining pattern in place, as if lining the quarters with the paper. Pin the lining paper in place through stitch holes top and bottom of the backseam and through the holes marking the foremost eyelets.
  6. If you’re going to insert a heel counter between those layers, set it in there temporarily, to make sure you end up with enough lasting allowance on the lining at the very back.
  7. Run around the edge of each quarter, marking the trim allowance back to a reasonable amount. I found the angle was also a little off overall, hence the need for big margins to start.
  8. Cut the lining pattern paper to the new trim allowance lines, click your lining leather, and continue.

One of the lessons I learned from this process is that you can make the lining all one piece and still end up with a rough, ugly backside of the backseam down the achilles and heel if you sew the backseam in a way that shows through the lining as ugly bumps.

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