I work in mostly 4.5-5 mm insole shoulder, with a 3 mm hold fast height. Unless I cut a wide groove or gouge a tapered channel in the inside edge of the hold fast it is hard to make my awl come out in the FL/HF corner.
I have tried the vertical slit method and find it nearly impossible to get the awl to come up at the junction correctly. Maybe this is just improper awl technique and not dropping my elbow fast enough. Or possibly the wrong welting awl for this method of inseaming.
I have tried the groove method which worked with very Careful attention to awl angle.
I have not tried diagonal cut such as many boot makers and whites use. Nor have I tried not carving a feather at all and simply beveling the feather edge as @Customboots has previously mentioned. I am not sure how well the beveled feather would pull in with the storm welt that my customers often request.
All of this said, what are the experiences of the group good bad or otherwise.
I am not sure what you mean by “slit method” or “groove method”. Perhaps different methods of carving holdfasts, like the ones I diagrammed here on the wiki?:
In my limited experience, ive had great luck cutting a 7mm wide holdfast at 3mm deep on the feather side with a channel knife, and for the inside of the holdfast, cutting about ~1/8" deep straight down, and then using the bevel of my skiver as a guide to open up the back side. Its probably ~30* or so.
Im using a Carbone 2 7/8 to inseam, and ive not a had an issue yet with it not landing in just the right spot on the holdfast.
Groove would be the groove and rectangular feather.
Or in the case as demonstrated by Lisa in the video linked in the wiki, a groove made by a stitch groover and simply beveling the feather edge.
The slit method vertical 1.) or diagonal 2.)would
1.) Feather formed as desired, on the inside edge of the hold fast a simple vertical incision straight down.
2.) Feather normally formed with a beveled edge and no other treatment, on the inside edge of the holdfast a diagonal slit made with knife of choice going from where the vertical cut would be diagonally down and out towards the feather edge. < similar to the feather formed by whites hand crank machine. (That appears to be a moccasin awl they are using in that video as well)
I had not even thought about HF width vs awl length/curve. I know I read that before but now reading this comment I don’t know why your description of hold fast width all of a sudden made me think of that. I am trying to get away from back filling if possible as well.
The problem I have had is sometimes it didn’t seem I could get the awl point to come out at the junction without pushing down very hard on the butt of the awl haft and pushing down on the feather edge.
I’ll get back to this after I run some practice HF’s.
Thank you.
@Kfd518, I mentioned this to you by e-mail, but for the benefit (or detriment) of others:
I’ve tried simply gouging out a groove on the insides of holdfasts, rather than cutting out an angled trench. I tried both with a gum tool or Craftool stitch groover style round cutter and by incising a slit and opening it.
With the usual “I’m a beginner” caveat:
I didn’t have trouble piercing from the inside out, despite the narrow grooves. I did end up with embossing little half-tubular impressions where the shank of the awl hit the side of the groove. I think this was a pair where I did this, and it’s visible:
I did occasionally have hang-ups sewing where the tip of the bristle coming in from the outside would hit the inner wall of the groove and snag, where a more ramp-like trench might have guided them up and clear. This wasn’t a huge issue. It was often possible to see the tip of the bristle and pick it up clear of the groove. But it wasn’t smooth when it happened, and I think it probably slowed me down.
I’m not sure grooving this way is actually any faster than carving out an angled trench with a bare blade, with some practice. Maybe my favorite shoemaking video on the Internet proves it:
Ken Kataoka has shared a number of fine videos showing how he incises the lines then carves out with a Yankee welt knife, for both sides of the holdfasts:
Anothony Delos doing the same at the heel:
David Parent:
In principle, mostly any small guarded blade would do. French edger. Feather knife. Big edge beveler.
Im not sure where i even remember reading that, and why it stuck so hard as holdfast width having a significant impact on your awl sizing. I think it may have been a conversation between DW and Paul Krause on the HCC forum that im still chewing through.
Below are three of my insoles, the two without metal shank were hand cut completely freehand with my 2.5” knife. The steel shank, the vertical feather cut and both cuts of the trench for the inside of the hold fast were the same method but the horizontal of the feather was done was done w the feather knife.
Your favorite shoemaking video looks like most of us fast forwarded about 6x speed working! lol
I think the realization that I need to widen my hold fast is something I need to play with tonite On some scrap. This may help with getting the storm welt tucked with no gap like I have had on 2 toes using it, since it will help with bringing the awl up out of the vamp lower to the feather looking at the shoe as worn.
Do we know of anyone on the forum that has used diagonal cut such as is used by many cowboy booot makers and in the whites boots? I’m not certain with the angle of the whites boots being rolled welt that their angle would work for me but I guess it would depend on the distance from the feather and the curve of the awl on that one.
So im having a stitchdown pair built by BJ Rhodes right now, and hes doing a storm welt over the flange like White’s Farmer & Rancher, and from what ive seen so far of the insole prep, hes not cutting a holdfast, in the traditonal sense, as much as the holdfast IS the feather edge. Ill be real interested to see it in person when i get my hands on it.
The way he’s doing it, and from what ive seen of whites, the construction looks more like veldtschoen, than a traditional rolled welt construction.
Pre holed a set of insoles a couple of nights ago and the the wider hole fast with a 3-1/2” king came up dead center of the feather/HF corner every time with little to no effort.
Dimensions used were those posted a while back by Lee Miller of Texas traditions in his IG.
From the feather line of the insole 3/16” outer feather channel, 5/8 in to inner channel. I only used a stitch grooved for my inner channel. This still brings the awl up at a point I feel will work quite well.
Waiting on top leather from SLC and crimp boards and screws from Dick Anderson.
These will be cowboy boots when finished.
Reposting this image from Lee’s IG all measurements are taken from the un-channeled feather of the insole.
I have not been able to get my awls to successfully sew a heel seat so as of this time they have all been nailed.
I have tried with the 3/4 inch channel in the heel but I think my current awls are just too long.
He mentioned 3-1/8” king awls are what he uses.
He did not, but in watching lots of his IG and the Kirby Allison series it appears he is using the same awl for both operations.
I know DWF used a much sharper bent and shortened customized awl for sewing seats.below is a picture from crispin colloquy, of Mr. Frommers modified seat sewing awls. I am posting the photo as well as the link since many people are not able to get a log in over there and subsequently can’t view the photos.
He reforged those himself. However the extreme curve awl from Lisa Sorrell by mowbray is quite curved but would have to be ground back. I do not know that it is as sharply curved.
So this is not pretty, but is very functional.
I was finally able to complete a sewn seat.
When I went to talk to my old boot maker a few weeks ago I asked him about sewing seats and shanks.
In the course of the conversation he advised not so go too dense on stitch count in these areas because they would subsequently be held with pegs after being set by the stitches. I can attest to his methods wear by the fact that I have 6 pair from him, my father has 4 and none of them have come apart in any of these areas with very heavy usage borderline abuse in 2 pair for each of us. Cowboying isn’t easy on any of the tools involved.
On this pair I used the above measurements except in the heel seat. I also didn’t cut an inner channel, I only grooved it out with a stitch grooved deep enough for the thread to sit just below flush. Before whipping in I set the shank in place to ensure I would have clearance to not have it rub on any of my stitches after trimming the excess.
While speaking with Rex, he said he no longer cuts the feather channel only that he bevels the insole bottom edge with a wide round beveler. He also advised me on a working boot not to cut the vamp and lining dead flush with the holdfast and welt but to make a wide skive from the welt thinning toward the inside edge of the holdfast so as to have plenty of leather on the inseam stitches to provide some resilience against tear out with how rough these boots are used. The one thing I don’t care for with his boots even though it looks good is how far his welts are tucked. Welts for working boots acts as bumpers to protect the upper from the items of all sorts to get kicked around constantly.
This was interesting, but I’m not sure I understood it right.
Do you think he meant that after inseaming the forepart of a cowboy boot, it’s best to trim the upper further inward from where the stitches hold the upper to the outside edge of the holfast, at the feather, and leave some upper material laying over the holdfast or the channel inside the cavity?
